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Divine Citrine
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Joined: 31 Oct 2006
Posts: 9
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 Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:16 am Post subject: Are Atheists angry? |
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I think the answer to that is it depends on the Atheist. I think that people of any group have their fair share of happy people, as well as angry people. I don't think in any situation it's due to how they view anything spiritual. I use to be an Atheist, and I was not an angry. As a matter of fact, I absolutely did not mind whether or not other people chose to worship any gods, an owl, or whatever it was that they decided to worship. While I personally did not worship anything, much less have any belief in an deities, I also did not think it was well within my rights to bash others over the heads with my views, or demand that they see things my way, or the high way. I perfered to live and let live, and protect everyone's right to freedom of religion or non religion. I did not get cranky unless some one came along trying to force their beliefs down my throat. I know of many atheists like this too.
So in the end, there are no more angry atheists than there are angry Christians. Not believing in any deities does not equal angry person. |
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AvengingAngel
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:18 am Post subject: Re: Are Atheists angry? |
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| Divine Citrine wrote: | | I use to be an Atheist, and I was not an angry. |
You used to be an Atheist? What evidence did you discover that led you to change your views?
| Divine Citrine wrote: | | So in the end, there are no more angry atheists than there are angry Christians. Not believing in any deities does not equal angry person. |
Well said. |
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Divine Citrine
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: Are Atheists angry? |
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| Quote: | | You used to be an Atheist? What evidence did you discover that led you to change your views? |
My first evidence was that I died. During that time, I noticed that death did not end it all, it wasn't the peaceful void of existing that I thought it would be. There were things that happened during that time that Susan Blakemore failed to explain, outside of just telling her audience to dismiss us as liars not to be believed, which I realized was really her cop out answer for failing to explain these particular kinds of occurances. So I was either to dismiss myself as a liar, which I obviously would not do, or dismiss her findings, which I had to do. But still I was stubborn, so I remained Atheist as far as deities were concerned but accepted that spirits lived after death. Then as time went on, and more extensive research I did, I came to the understanding that a diety at least exists, or that there is a high probability of it. However, I do not knock or object people that do not feel this way. People are different in their approaches and what may be valid to some, is not valid for everyone.
Thank you!  If anyone doubts me on that, there are plenty of angry hateful Christians that I can refer them to. |
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AvengingAngel
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:06 am Post subject: |
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So you had a NDE? Interesting!
Can you go into more detail? I don't mean to pry...
Two thoughts:
There are religious traditions that believe in life after death, but do not believe in a deity. There are also modern 'science fiction religions', such as Universal Immortalism, which is strongly atheist, but holds a belief in life after death. So, the belief in life after death can co-exist happily with atheism.
Secondly, I'll believe the NDE provides evidence of life after death when somebody has an NDE while shown to be completely brain dead. And I mean total brain death - no electrical or chemical activity. |
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Divine Citrine
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:46 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Can you go into more detail? I don't mean to pry... |
Certainly! I can understand and appreciate others wanting to hear a little more about this. It started with a bad car accident when I snuck out like I was not suppose to. I was a teen, but my friend was driving. The last thing I remembered was going around that bad turn near the graveyard and then the big tree in front of us. Then everything went black. I don't know how much time had passed or even the time, but it must have been daylight by then because next thing I knew I was in a hallway at a hospital looking at my parents but they could not see me. I was trying to get their attention. I was actually enjoying myself too, as strange as it sounds. I was able to bounce around and do a lot of things that you can not do within the scope of a human body. So this started out rather fun for me. My reason for trying to get my parent's attention was to show them the cool new things I could do, it was as if the reality of the situation was not occuring to me yet, or at least I didn't care about itl. Then I felt as if I was involuntarily pulled out of there and then into this strange dimension that was complete darkness, with these crazy glowing spike shaped things flying all around me at incredible speeds. It was kind of interesting and I wasn't very nervous yet. Then I felt like I was involuntarily pulled into, for some strange reason, one of my old friend's house. His mother was wearing an emerald green bathrobe, she was sitting at the dinning room table, with what looked like brandy with two ice cubes in a short wide glass. (This women was a woman that we use to laugh at behind her back and make fun of because of how she'd sit in her room and talk to dead people. We thought it was funny and stupid of her). Then suddenly, she look straight at me and very excitedly said my name and how nice it was to see me, and that she hadn't seen me in ages. At that point I got nervous. No one else could see me so I couldn't figure out how she saw me and plus I felt like I was invading her home. So I tried hard getting the heck out of there. Next thing I knew, I felt involuntarily pulled to the sand pits that I had spent a lot of my free time at in the past. At these sand pits is a water tower where maybe once in a blue moon, workers come to check on it. That day they decided to check on it, and I was nervous that they might see me too like she did, especially since it's a no trespassing place. So I was trying to get away from there, to then wind up in my front yard. Apparently, the boy next door did not know of any family emergency and decided to come over to mow the lawn like he did once a week. My parents cars were not there, but it did not matter to him. So I was above him, looking down watching him, and even chuckled a little when he got his arm caught in the thorn bush as he went by.( lol That's still funny to me when I think about it, and the look on his face too!) At that point, everything went back to blank. That was the end of it. I woke up the next day, and of course very troubled about the things the day before. A weak later I decided to investigate and was able to confirm through other sources what I saw, including the scratches on my stupid next door neighbor's arm from the thorn bush. lol In fact, he bitched at me about it when I enquired. So that's pretty much it. There was no tunnel for me, no bright pie in the sky, no god, no nothing but what I saw.
It is interesting that you brought up other groups of atheists whom held to those views. For quite a while I felt like I was the only one.
| Quote: | | Secondly, I'll believe the NDE provides evidence of life after death when somebody has an NDE while shown to be completely brain dead. And I mean total brain death - no electrical or chemical activity. |
I think you mean brain death, as in, nothing in the body is showing any type of chemistry, and ATP has been expended fully. When the machine flat lines that means that there is no longer anything electrical in the brain, hence why it is flatlining in the first place. The difference is there is a small window of oppurtunity that a doctor and send electrical currents through the body to restart it, and salvage the person. They do this because all currents are ceasing, and therefore the external shock is warranted. So what you seem to be looking for is some one that went past this point of no return, of which, chances are execellent you will not find one for obvious reasons.
As far as believing if this is proof of after life is concerned, I do not expect to be believed just because I said so. I believe, for the simple fact that I experienced it. If others do not believe, I do not mind. I am not here to justify myself, debate what happened, nor try to cram it down anyone's throats to prove anything to them. You asked, I shared, and in the end, what happened to me is only valid to me and no one else is in any way required to except it. I am absolutely fine with that, as long as others are fine with the fact that per my experience, I accept the evidence that happened to me, as evidence for myself. |
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AvengingAngel
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:09 am Post subject: |
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I recall reading about an 'experiment' in some hospital where an electronic sign is placed near the ceiling so that only somebody 'floating' out of his/her body near the ceiling would be able to read the sign. If somebody has an obe/nde in that room and is able to describe the sign and what the message was that was displayed on the sign at the time of the episode, then that would constitute evidence of life after death.
That is the type of evidence that would make people like me sit up and take notice.
Until then, the nde is simply the incredible product of a brain under extreme stress. |
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Divine Citrine
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Joined: 31 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| AvengingAngel wrote: | I recall reading about an 'experiment' in some hospital where an electronic sign is placed near the ceiling so that only somebody 'floating' out of his/her body near the ceiling would be able to read the sign. If somebody has an obe/nde in that room and is able to describe the sign and what the message was that was displayed on the sign at the time of the episode, then that would constitute evidence of life after death.
That is the type of evidence that would make people like me sit up and take notice.
Until then, the nde is simply the incredible product of a brain under extreme stress. |
I would hold off on being quick to accept that for evidence if I were you. For instance, how do you know that it isn't embelished? Example: I am Dr. Spice, I had this patient that affirmed a sign I set up near the ceiling during the time that the patient flatlined. It was incredible!!!!
Those experiments are no better than something like what I experienced when I saw things going on, as they were happening, in places outside of the hospital. However, I am happy that you think so highly of my imagination that I am able to psychically project images to myself of what is happening elsewhere as they are occuring. That's fine with me, for sure! Once again, it is another case of evidence being valid only to those whom experience it. You have no reason to believe a doctor is honest than you do anyone else. The evidence you require would not have impressed me much at all. In fact, I suppose nothing would have, unless I went through it myself. |
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AvengingAngel
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| Divine Citrine wrote: |
I would hold off on being quick to accept that for evidence if I were you. For instance, how do you know that it isn't embelished? Example: I am Dr. Spice, I had this patient that affirmed a sign I set up near the ceiling during the time that the patient flatlined. It was incredible!!!!
Those experiments are no better than something like what I experienced when I saw things going on, as they were happening, in places outside of the hospital. However, I am happy that you think so highly of my imagination that I am able to psychically project images to myself of what is happening elsewhere as they are occuring. That's fine with me, for sure! Once again, it is another case of evidence being valid only to those whom experience it. You have no reason to believe a doctor is honest than you do anyone else. The evidence you require would not have impressed me much at all. In fact, I suppose nothing would have, unless I went through it myself. |
If I remember correctly, the experiment is designed to determine if somebody who has a nde while in that (operating?) room is actually leaving his/her body and floating near the ceiling so that the sign could be read.
If I remember correctly, the whole thing is designed to be as 'scientific' as possible - and that means certain procedures are in effect to prevent the type of cheating you are describing.
That is why any successful "hits" in this experiment would capture my skeptical attention. And then, of course, I would ask for replication. Such is the nature of science.
On the other hand, my memory of the experimental setup could be faulty. I don't have the time, but maybe you might be able to find a reference to this experiment?? I first remember reading about it more than a year ago. I also remember reading about it just a few months ago - the results were negative so far.
I'm, like, seriously overworked right now. Any chance you can do my homework for me????
I don't even remember where this is being carried out.........
time for.......  |
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Divine Citrine
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Joined: 31 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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Hey there,
I know what you are saying, but what I am saying is, how do we know that the ones doing the experiment are honest? If a doctor wanted to convince us that the experiement was successful, all he'd have to do is claim that it happened in front of him. Then it would be up to us to determine if he is truthful or not. The problem is, it's only valid to the ones making the claim, and those who have faith that them is being truthful.
In other words, say they do have a certain scientific procedure to it; there could still be the group of people video taping, the experiment being repeated, and everyone really just acting out a part. I could completely understand why atheists and others would still feel skeptical about this.
Being very familiar with "scientific method" I am honestly not sure that this is something that can be tested applying scientific method; unless of course, something was invented that could actually show a soul physically departing a body during this time. Anything else is just some one's word for it, rather than collected/observed data. Now I know this must sound strange coming from some one who's had this kind of experience, but I am just being honest about it. Even my experience isn't something that is testible and observable via any instrument they have in the field of science. Even with my experience, I would not consider it evidence for everyone since it's really something that would be valid only to the one who experienced it.
Another thing you could do, could be to come involved in one of those experiments to be the actual observer. That way you would at least know for absolute certainty in your mind that what you observed was valid. However, you will find that others may remain skeptical inspite of what you observed. But at least you'd have something that you feel is valid for you, since it was your experience.
I will glady research what you would like, and share whatever I can find on this matter. Maybe there is something newer going on in way of these studies. |
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Divine Citrine
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Posts: 9
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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I did not find the kind of research you were looking for yet, but I did come across this other study that has been done. This group used control groups and seemed to do a series of tests. They also raise some important issues that challenges some of the fond explanations out there. But I will say that the best this tells us is what an NDE is likely NOT, rather than prove positive what it is. When I look for these things, I tend to steer clear from any psuedo-science type sites. I think you might enjoy this study at least.
http://iands.org/research/vanLommel/vanLommel2.php
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