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AvengingAngel
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 Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| Divine Citrine wrote: |
I know what you are saying, but what I am saying is, how do we know that the ones doing the experiment are honest? |
How do we know that the people doing any scientific experiment are honest?
By repeating the experiment in other places with different people. That's why replication is so important in science. Somebody who is faking it will eventually be found out.
Anyway, I think this is what I was thinking of: http://www.calitreview.com/Interviews/roach_8021.htm
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From the link: "A team of cardiologists and psychiatrists at the University of Virginia are taking a simple, rather elegant approach to trying to find out whether people who have these experiences are hallucinating or are actually leaving their bodies. They've got a laptop computer taped, flat open, on top of the highest cardiac monitor in an operating room, such that the only way you could see what's on the screen would be if you were floating up by the ceiling. You can't see the image (one of several rotating images, randomly chosen) from down below. Patients are interviewed after they leave the OR, to see if they report having seen anything. So far, none of the patients has had an NDE, but the project had only just begun when I was there."
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You can set up this type of experiment so that cheating is very difficult. If they claim success, then you can repeat the experiment in thousands of operating rooms across the globe.
If successful hits keep rolling in, then I would take that as pretty significant evidence that a person having a near death experience is able to leave his/her body and look down on his/her physical body.
Keep in mind that cheating can be engineered out of this type of experiment (e.g. nobody knows what the image/message on the laptop is at the time of the nde, the person interviewing the patient doesn't know what the image/message was, the image/message can be displayed on the laptop in a random manner, etc. etc. etc.).
Well-run experiments like this, repeated in different locations across the globe, would convince me that there is "something to" the near death experience...... |
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AvengingAngel
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| Divine Citrine wrote: | I did not find the kind of research you were looking for yet, but I did come across this other study that has been done. This group used control groups and seemed to do a series of tests. They also raise some important issues that challenges some of the fond explanations out there. But I will say that the best this tells us is what an NDE is likely NOT, rather than prove positive what it is. When I look for these things, I tend to steer clear from any psuedo-science type sites. I think you might enjoy this study at least.
http://iands.org/research/vanLommel/vanLommel2.php |
Thanks for the link. It looks good and I'll read it as soon as I get time......... |
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Divine Citrine
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Joined: 31 Oct 2006
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| I know in the case you are mentioning is deliberately set up, and I did look into it last night and came across some skeptics whom voiced similiar concerns as I, plus other concerns. However, how is this experiement or the results of it really any different than cases of people said to leave a hospital and positively identify objects on roofs and window sills that no one involved with the patient had even known these objects were there, until the patient mentioned them, and they then discovered it? There have been many cases such as that. It seems in these cases like the experiment you are referring to both have some kind of object shown that no one knows about until the NDE confirms it. Unless, are these electronic images controlled by some one outside of the hospital, and is able to determine if there is a hit? I'd feel potentially suspicious of something controlled by people inside these hospitals. For instance, make the image fit, or claim that it fit. Or in case of an object outside a window sill that no one knew was there, the NDE says it was there, so place one there. |
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Divine Citrine
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Joined: 31 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:03 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the link. It looks good and I'll read it as soon as I get time......... |
You are very welcome! It is pretty interesting and shows other kinds of experiments that have been done to date on these things that pertains to evaluating collected data. |
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AvengingAngel
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| Divine Citrine wrote: | | I know in the case you are mentioning is deliberately set up, and I did look into it last night and came across some skeptics whom voiced similiar concerns as I, plus other concerns. However, how is this experiement or the results of it really any different than cases of people said to leave a hospital and positively identify objects on roofs and window sills that no one involved with the patient had even known these objects were there, until the patient mentioned them, and they then discovered it? There have been many cases such as that. It seems in these cases like the experiment you are referring to both have some kind of object shown that no one knows about until the NDE confirms it. Unless, are these electronic images controlled by some one outside of the hospital, and is able to determine if there is a hit? I'd feel potentially suspicious of something controlled by people inside these hospitals. For instance, make the image fit, or claim that it fit. Or in case of an object outside a window sill that no one knew was there, the NDE says it was there, so place one there. |
I have stuff to say here, but I'm too tired now. Gotta go. I will continue tomorrow. c ya  |
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AvengingAngel
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| Divine Citrine wrote: | | However, how is this experiement or the results of it really any different than cases of people said to leave a hospital and positively identify objects on roofs and window sills that no one involved with the patient had even known these objects were there, until the patient mentioned them, and they then discovered it? |
Off hand, I'd say that these objects could be seen by people. Perhaps even the patient was wheeled by a window which looked out over a roof upon which the sneakers lay. The experiment with the laptop is designed so that only somebody "floating" up near the ceiling can read what is on the screen.
| Divine Citrine wrote: | | There have been many cases such as that. It seems in these cases like the experiment you are referring to both have some kind of object shown that no one knows about until the NDE confirms it. Unless, are these electronic images controlled by some one outside of the hospital, and is able to determine if there is a hit? I'd feel potentially suspicious of something controlled by people inside these hospitals. For instance, make the image fit, or claim that it fit. Or in case of an object outside a window sill that no one knew was there, the NDE says it was there, so place one there. |
You can design the thing pretty well. You have the patient interviewed by a team of scientists - made up of both believers and skeptics. If the patient reports seeing a laptop computer while floating above his body, then the scientists question him as to what was on the screen. The team then compares what was actually on the screen with what the patient saw. You can also make sure that the data from the laptop is not accessable without all team members typing in their personal code.
The fact is you can design a scientific test, such as the laptop experiment, that could potentially provide evidence that people can actually leave their bodies during the nde.
Somebody a lot smarter than me - perhaps James Randi - could come up with a variation of the laptop experiment that would be darned close to foolproof. |
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Tracian
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Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 109
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| AvengingAngel wrote: | | Divine Citrine wrote: | | However, how is this experiement or the results of it really any different than cases of people said to leave a hospital and positively identify objects on roofs and window sills that no one involved with the patient had even known these objects were there, until the patient mentioned them, and they then discovered it? |
Off hand, I'd say that these objects could be seen by people. Perhaps even the patient was wheeled by a window which looked out over a roof upon which the sneakers lay. The experiment with the laptop is designed so that only somebody "floating" up near the ceiling can read what is on the screen.
| Divine Citrine wrote: | | There have been many cases such as that. It seems in these cases like the experiment you are referring to both have some kind of object shown that no one knows about until the NDE confirms it. Unless, are these electronic images controlled by some one outside of the hospital, and is able to determine if there is a hit? I'd feel potentially suspicious of something controlled by people inside these hospitals. For instance, make the image fit, or claim that it fit. Or in case of an object outside a window sill that no one knew was there, the NDE says it was there, so place one there. |
You can design the thing pretty well. You have the patient interviewed by a team of scientists - made up of both believers and skeptics. If the patient reports seeing a laptop computer while floating above his body, then the scientists question him as to what was on the screen. The team then compares what was actually on the screen with what the patient saw. You can also make sure that the data from the laptop is not accessable without all team members typing in their personal code.
The fact is you can design a scientific test, such as the laptop experiment, that could potentially provide evidence that people can actually leave their bodies during the nde.
Somebody a lot smarter than me - perhaps James Randi - could come up with a variation of the laptop experiment that would be darned close to foolproof. |
Nothing is foolproof if humans are involved in the study. 
As far as James Randi, while I admire his efforts, which are much like Houdini's, I also find him to be very close minded for someone that claims to be a 'free thinker'
Not everything in the world is always provable....at least provable to the satisfaction of some...
anyway just my opinion...
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Merry Meet, Merry Part, Merry Meet Again
Bright Blessings,
Tracian
http://www.myspace.com/wiccanoflochlomond |
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AvengingAngel
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| Tracian wrote: |
Nothing is foolproof if humans are involved in the study. |
I said "darned close" to foolproof.
| Tracian wrote: | | As far as James Randi, while I admire his efforts, which are much like Houdini's, I also find him to be very close minded for someone that claims to be a 'free thinker' |
I've heard this before from people who don't like the fact that he refuses to believe stuff without the proper evidence.
He's designed experiments to test water dowsers. If people would only pass this sort of test, Randi would be glad to believe.
He's designed experiments to test psychics. If only people would pass this sort of test, Randi would be glad to believe.
Bottom line, if you have a well-defined paranormal claim, then Randi can design an experiment to test it. Pass the tests and he will believe.
It doesn't get any more open-minded than that. |
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Divine Citrine
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Joined: 31 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Off hand, I'd say that these objects could be seen by people. Perhaps even the patient was wheeled by a window which looked out over a roof upon which the sneakers lay. The experiment with the laptop is designed so that only somebody "floating" up near the ceiling can read what is on the screen. |
Actually in a lot of these cases, they were items on the roof of the hospital, or on window sills on floors so far up, the patient had never been on the floor. Other times, they describe things going on in rooms that occurred during the time that they had flat lined. There has been numerous cases of such.
| Quote: | | You can design the thing pretty well. You have the patient interviewed by a team of scientists - made up of both believers and skeptics. If the patient reports seeing a laptop computer while floating above his body, then the scientists question him as to what was on the screen. The team then compares what was actually on the screen with what the patient saw. You can also make sure that the data from the laptop is not accessable without all team members typing in their personal code. |
This would be a good start. I think too, that in each of these experiments they should select a panel of scientist whom are impartial to it all to make the final decision as to whether or not these were valid hits. Sometimes when you have believers and skeptics, both of whom has a personal biased, a thing called research bias can occur. The impartial panel should also check everything thoroughly to make sure parties on either side of the issue did not tamper with anything directly or indirectly. So I guess what I am curious about now, is HOW or the METHOD they are using for these tests. For instance, are they doing it as careful as what you or I proposed or are we hoping that this is how they do it?
Hey Tracian...
| Quote: | | As far as James Randi, while I admire his efforts, which are much like Houdini's, I also find him to be very close minded for someone that claims to be a 'free thinker' |
Ironically some who refer to themselves as "free thinkers" are actually anything BUT a free thinker. While I believe you should never be so open minded that your brains fall out, you should also not be so narrow in thinking that you shut your mind into this tiny little box where even if the evidence smacked you upside the head, you'd still deny it. Both extremes are not a good idea.
To Avengingangel..
| Quote: | I've heard this before from people who don't like the fact that he refuses to believe stuff without the proper evidence.
He's designed experiments to test water dowsers. If people would only pass this sort of test, Randi would be glad to believe.
He's designed experiments to test psychics. If only people would pass this sort of test, Randi would be glad to believe.
Bottom line, if you have a well-defined paranormal claim, then Randi can design an experiment to test it. Pass the tests and he will believe.
It doesn't get any more open-minded than that. |
I am admittedly ignorant of Randi, and unable to really state any informed opinion of him. Tracian seems to feel he is close minded, you say no. However, there are people out there that are close minded yet still call themselves free thinkers. I do not know for myself, from my own observation, whether or not Randi is one of them. Perhaps I will make him an object of my research tonight! I just love researching new things and people; never could get enough of learning! |
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ReasoningFilly
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Joined: 03 Feb 2007
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:14 am Post subject: |
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I've never met an angry Atheist.
Is this a trick question?
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Man is certainly stark mad: He cannot make a flea, yet he makes gods by the dozens. - Montaigne |
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